Selling in a Time of Corona – S2E9 – The Relationship Sellers

Creative intro:

Chris Rock:                Marriage is tough, marriage is really tough. Marriage is so tough; Nelson Mandela got a divorce. Nelson Mandela spent 47 years in a South African prison, got beaten and tortured every day for 27 years, and did it with no problem, made to do hard labour in 100-degree South African heat for 27 years. And did it with no problem, he got out of jail after 27 years of torture, spent six months with his wife and said, I can't take that shit no more!

Elliot Epstein:            So, someone at a bat, apparently, and the world turned upside down. Hi, I'm Elliot Epstein and I spent the last 20 years of my life coaching, consulting, training and speaking about all facets of sales development, pitching, presentations, negotiation, the C Suite sales call and all of the various components in the sale cycle in between. And now we find ourselves in a world that's very foreign.

Welcome to Selling in a Time of Corona.

Welcome to the Relationship Seller’s episode. I love comedian Chris Rock on how hard relationships can be, but what are business relationships in a time isolated via Covid connected mostly by pixels in a globalized world where new competitors seemingly spring up sometimes every quarter. Are they the same as what we had in the year 2019 B.C. (Before Corona)? To find out, I caught up with two special guests for you today. Both have years of experience building networks and relationships and have a solid history of very long lunches.

They are the ultimate rapport builders. People who put others at ease, experts at establishing trust and their tips on staying connected are well worth listening to. My first guest is Scott Hudson, General Manager and market liaison at Computershare, who has built quality relationships with CEOs and CFOs of top ASX 100 companies for nearly 15 years.

Grab a coffee as we catch up to discuss how Scott does it, including Hudo’s wonderfully simple and effective “Three eyes” technique.

Hey, Scott, it's great to have you as part of Selling in a time of Corona in the Relationship Selling episode. Now, you have had a stellar career in financial services and the interesting thing about that length of time has been your C-level engagement. So, you're not just building relationships with mid-level people to offer solutions and deliver a result. You're talking to CEOs, CFOs, CEOs of some of the top ASX 100 companies. So perhaps you could share with us what sort of things that you do to build relationships with those people.

Scott Hudson:            Yes, thanks, Elliot, and thanks for having me on. Look, I think probably the most important thing and where I'll start this is thinking about what makes relationships. And that's really in my mind about understanding the person you're engaging with, whether that's whether that's Face-To-Face in a pre-Covid world or whether that's over Zoom or on any number of phone calls that we've all had over the last six or eight months. So really trying to sort of understand the person that you're talking to, that you're engaging with.

Where are they coming from? What are their drivers? And when I look at when I look at their drivers, it's equally important to understand what are their personal drivers and personal preferences as much as what are their professional drivers? What are they trying to achieve professionally? Because I think if you get to know the person that's actually in that CFO role or COO role or CEO role, a lot of the time, that will then help you understand the way that they operate professionally in those positions.

And I think, you know, we've known each other for a long time, Elliot. I think that was one of the real nuggets of gold I heard from you a number of years ago and has now sort of getting to know the person in the position, which is something that's not been a pretty good tool to just sort of use through my career.

Elliot Epstein:             Yes, and you do that very well. There'll be a lot of people listening, Scott, who think, oh, this is a CEO of a four-billion-dollar company.

How am I going to uncover the personal drivers, especially on the first or second call of meeting someone? How do you build a relationship with someone that's typically sitting in the big office and he or she is an executive with a large remit? So perhaps you can share a couple of stories or insights about the fact that you and I both know these are just people, they’re men and women who do a job and they go home, and they've got kids.

Scott Hudson:            And there's all manner of ways that you can go about, I guess, sort of doing the research on the people themselves. And so, when that's direct, you can go direct. You can look up in industry journals, in the media. Where is the company being profiled? Where have those executives been presenting, where they've been talking about in the industry? What have they been talking about I think and then also, you know, sort of understanding how those individuals and businesses then operate more broadly in the broader market and industry ecosystem.

So, talking to some of their current employees is often quite powerful as well. So, if I'm looking at engaging with a CFO or on some registry services that we might be doing here at Computershare, I can sort of often get feel it's valuable to have a discussion with maybe the company's legal advisors, the professional corporate advisers. And to sort of understand how they operate; how do they engage with their service providers.

And that then helps me with then the approach and then essentially trying to find that rapport and connection with that executive.

Elliot Epstein:             It's  terrific and there are so many people that just don't take advantage of the availability of the research that's out there. So, you talk about YouTube to watch what they've said about themselves in the company, with Facebook, with LinkedIn, of course. And then you're talking about actually picking up the phone. It's just a simple thing, picking up the phone or sending an email to a colleague in the industry and say, do you know Jane Smith?

What's she like? What's she concerned about? What's her career been like? What do you think she'd be most interested in?

Even that stuff, which, you know, ironically used to happen if you go back 50, 60 years because there was no Internet.

Scott Hudson:            Elliot, its old school networking, isn't it? It really is. It's old school networking. It's having a look around the room and thinking about, here's the person I want to try and talk to and engage with and build a relationship with. Who else did I know in my network? Who knows them? “Hey, what’s Dave like…. what's Sally like?“. What are they up to at the minute, what are they trying to achieve and then sort of taking that intelligence, if you like, back in that understanding about  where those people are, what they're trying to achieve, and personally, professionally and then sort of adjusting my approach and my connection and my engagement to account for that.

Elliot Epstein:             Terrific. So how have you handled Covid, Scott? No coffees, no face-to-face meetings, are you still alive?

Scott Hudson:            Barely, barely, I haven’t really haven't lost any weight, which is just to answer that question, because I do get that a lot. I get a lot of “Hey, you must be looking really trim with no lunches” And the CFO is pretty happy to see an entertainment budget looking outstanding. But I think once, certainly from a Melbourne perspective, once it's back on, I think it's going to be back on.

I do talk to a lot of people, and it seems like that a lot of people are really missing that face-to-face connection. Human beings, we've got two hundred thousand years of evolution and you are dealing with each other face to face. That seems to be something that a lot of people are really missing, whether that's a Melbourne thing or a Sydney thing. So, I think, look, with Covid, I've spent a lot of time on the phone. I've had three kids doing home schooling in parallel.

And my youngest, who's seven, actually said “Dad, you’ve got the easiest job in the world. All you do is talk on the phone all day.” And I thought about that and he’s not far wrong. And I spend a lot of time talking to people about how they're going. What are they up to? What are they seeing, how their business is going, really trying to keep those conversations and connections going until we're back to some sort of new operating normal.

Elliot Epstein:             So, if I said to you that, I would guesstimate that about 30 percent of salespeople during Covid not engaging with clients or prospects on the phone to that extent, they're just defaulting to a set meeting on Zoom or using email. Would you be shocked?

Scott Hudson:            And, you know, I probably I probably would be, and I think I think it's a missed opportunity. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm Zoomed out and often find Zoom a taxing medium.

And it's actually a taxing technology, I  much prefer just having a phone call. It's  more conversational. You can pick up a little bit more nuance and some of the softer pointers in people's voices rather than the sort of often directly screen that that you might get on a Zoom or a WebEx or any of the other platforms.

Elliot Epstein:             So, if you were to mentor, you know, the next generation of people coming through and I know you've led teams before where you are, what would your top couple of tips be about where relationships selling fits into the stratosphere of overall account management and business development?

Scott Hudson:            I think it's very high, and particularly I think in this world where you can click into Google and find all manner of information around people, around businesses, around solutions, and it's really about trying to get some more qualitative intelligence insights, feedback. And that's something you can really get from  people, from relationships. So, I think from a quality perspective, you can do all the research you like, but to actually really get some colour and some perspective and nuance.

I think that's where relationships and relationship sales really do come to the fore and can deliver a significant amount of value to your business to your teams,  and ultimately to your clients and your contacts.

Elliot Epstein:             And one last thing is how much effort would you put into maintaining those relationships over your careers? If you think back over, what, a decade and a half to two decades, maybe of this kind of work, what would you do to maintain that?

Scott Hudson:            Look, I think it's really, it's really important just to keep up contact, and that's whether they're with existing clients and existing contacts. I really encourage people to think about people that they might have dealt with historically and look to reconnect, because it's a very, very small world out there.

And what you're up to today is going to be very different from what you were doing five or 10 years ago. And equally so some of those historic contacts.  there's a lot of relationship goals that are sitting in your historic networks. Now, I think the second was thinking about, you know, so you've got today’s relationships, you've got yesterday's relationships. I have one eye looking forward to, who are the relationships I’m meeting to build as I go forward.

So, it's very much like today, yesterday and tomorrow. So essentially “Three eyes” relationship management.

Elliot Epstein:             “Three eyes relationship management”., I really like that. You should copyright that.

Scott Hudson:            Yes, put a copyright on Hudson 2020 around that one, “Three eyes”.

Elliot Epstein:             And then you'll be called “Three eyes” instead of all those other names.

Scott Hudson:            Just add that maybe instead of all of those other names I think which is an extensive list.

Elliot Epstein:             Scott, it's been great to catch up. Looking forward to having a beer when we're all released from Purgatory. So, some great tips there, I really appreciate you joining me on the program. And I will see you out there in the real world.

Scott Hudson:            Thanks, Elliot. And remember, when it's back on, it's going to be back on. Thanks for having me.

Elliot Epstein:             My second guest has not only developed a fabulous network in the IT industry, but he also built a business from zero to over 30 million in only five years.

And he attributes a lot of that success to his relationship building prowess, Jarrod Bloomfield or JBomb to his mates, what else would you expect from a sociable personality is currently director of client engagement at Cube Networks. As you'll hear, what you see is what you get. You can't get more authentic than Jarrod. If you required a long macchiato for Scott, you'll need a cleansing ale to listen to Jarrod. Here he is.

Hello JBomb, welcome to Selling in a Time of Corona. It's great to have you on this episode, which is all about relationship selling. So, tell me when you first realized that you were pretty good at building business relationships.

Jarrod Bloomfield :   Thanks, Eliot. Thanks for having me. Great to be here. I first realized pretty early on, actually, that, you know, I had a unique ability to connect with people on a more personal level than, you know, others could develop, so as I said pretty early on, I knew that I had an infectious personality, that I could be a little bit cheeky and get away with it.

So, I think when I realized that it was, you know, I was quite, quite young and I've developed it out from there during business.

Elliot Epstein:             So, give us an example of how you put that tricky personality to work in an environment where, you know, a lot of corporate meetings are still a little bit stiff or a little bit stand offish and people sussing each other out. What have you done to inject your personality to make a difference?

Jarrod Bloomfield:    So, I think authenticity is key. And as soon as people realize that, you know, you're fairly authentic and fairly personable, it sort of eases the mood and eases  the tension. And it creates a lot safer environment to communicate. So, I think authenticity is key.

Elliot Epstein:             Which is you obviously, you're like that in your private life and your business life.

Can you give us a couple of examples of where you might have discussed the topic with a client that others wouldn't? Or you've had a bit of fun with a client where others wouldn't think to do that?

Jarrod Bloomfield:    Yes, so I think it's a lot easier to ask harder questions and sort of business questions in a context around, you know, around sort of feeling really safe and comfortable. So, if you’re both of that mind set. So just examples where you typically ask, you know, the questions that a lot of people don't want to ask around budgets and timings.

And I think once you're authentic and you develop that partnership with someone, it's a lot easier to ask those sorts of harder questions of people. The people generally like to steer away from often that, you know, the questions where people don't want to get a negative answer or might be a hard answer to follow, they're the questions I like to ask, ask early and get out of the way. So, it's done and dusted. Using specific examples is just, yeah, just, you know, getting to that level really quickly where you're personable and, you know, you are having a laugh and being sort of unserious. We're in a serious environment a lot of the time, and I think it sort of eases people down and really to ask the hard questions in a way that makes them sound really easy.

Elliot Epstein:             Can you give an example of how you build that level of rapport in order to earn the right to ask those questions?

Jarrod Bloomfield:    Yeah, well, what I do and what I do really well is, when I first meet people, I tend to listen and then weaving, you know, some form of humour  which works for me. And it's, you know, it's worked for me for my whole career. And as I said, it relaxes people to a level where they know that, you know, they get a sense that you're a real person and not making everything is so serious.

And you can have a bit of fun while working, people want to like to get to know me, I guess, because I take time to get to know them. So, things like, you know, talking about their family, their kids and then building rapport out like that and not so much all about the work, the work, things that actually feel like, okay, this you know, I'm really interested in in what they're up to. And my agenda isn’t just work, work, work.

And, you know, sales, sales, sales.

Elliot Epstein:           Yeah, and you prove that because you actually continue that whether they're buying from you or not, is that right? So, you seal with someone, you might win some business, but you'll keep in touch with them, and you'll keep that personal relationship with them, even if there's no budget that year.

Jarrod Bloomfield: One hundred percent, so some of the relationships I've still got, you know, are 15-year relationships, the original clients that I still talk to and still call in and say how they're going with no real agenda. And I find I have this little motto called “Sales Karma”, where if you do enough of the right stuff, you find that a lot of things fall into place. The relationships that I've developed and some of them are 15 plus years, I don't have the mindset that I constantly want to sell something. I think I build relationships that actually I like to turn into friendships. And if I look at most of my circle of friends, they probably all out of the IT circle. I have the mindset that I show care and interest into what they're up to and not just from a work scene and, and make sure I stay in contact. Things like text messages and little calls here and there and you know, remembering who goes for which football team and things like that and keep conversations going.

Elliot Epstein:             That's great. So how have you managed the wonderful world of Covid-19 as a relationship-oriented person?

Jarrod Bloomfield: Oh mate,  it's been tough. I think the expression I used or have used for six months is I feel like a bit like a caged lion. Not being allowed out. I like to meet people, I’m a very social butterfly. So, it's been, say, challenging because I started a new role only six months ago, so right when Covid started, managing a team. So, to build obviously the team, you know, building up that relationship ship with them and then obviously meeting new customers as well that that we deal with.

So, it's definitely been challenging in a way, though, I'll say it's helped me probably settle down a little bit from and not, you know, and use my energy in different ways. And it's enabled me to actually get a greater understanding of the business and our customers a lot more than I probably would have so it’s had  some positives. But I think, you know, we're coming to six, seven months now.

And it's to the point where I think everyone's at the end of their tether. So, it's there's a lot of frustrated people that you talk to. And it's definitely tough engaging in newer, newer projects and new initiatives with customers at the moment. There they are trying to keep things, you know, business as usual and keep costs down, which, is always the way, but I think it's more emphasized at the moment, so definitely challenging and it's definitely difficult to navigate.

Elliot Epstein:             Yeah, but you kept in contact with people, whether it's via video conference, text calls and all of that, which is great. You know, one of our earlier episodes, we discussed that some clients are just not seeing their vendors and their suppliers at all. They kind of dropped off a cliff or all they get is emails from them and nothing else, just pitching them cheap solutions. So, relationship selling’s never been more important on that front.

To finish off with, what would you say to people who say, look, I like to have a clear delineation in my life. I am a wife or a husband and a mom or a dad. And that's my life separately. And when I sit in front of a camera or I go to see a client, that's my business life. And the two are very separate and I don't want those lines to be blurred. What would you suggest to them in that thinking?

Jarrod Bloomfield:    Well, firstly, I'd say, you know, each to their own, and if that's the way you want to operate, that's the way you want to operate. But I think if that's your mindset, it'll come out when you speak to people who have your mind set. Okay. This is a business arrangement, and that's all I'm going to, that's all I'm going to think about when I meet you, it'll come out in your body language, it'll come out with how you communicate to people, and you won't be open and honest, and you'll get that reflection back from who you talk to.

So, I think if it's okay to, you know, split up your family and work life, that's great. It's good to have balance. But if that's, you know, genuine, genuinely your mindset, it'll come out and how you communicate and how you present. So, I'd say have a think about it and just change some of your techniques. And yeah, because you get to experience people at a deeper level and then probably have a bit more fun while doing it.

Elliot Epstein:             Yeah, and I think that fun aspect is important because if you can't have a laugh with clients and even to the point where, you know, you take the piss out of them a little bit and you allow them to have a go at you, and you're pretty good at that, right. If the client has a go at you for overselling something or for getting a deal over the line and says, oh, so you're going to buy a Lamborghini now, you'll laugh it off and run with it and offer to take him for a test drive, whereas other people will get quite defensive about that sort of situation.

I think certainly in a culture like Australia and other parts of the world as well, there's a lot of opportunity to be authentic, as you've said, and to make sure that when you're dealing with people, you're not dealing with an organisation. You're dealing with decision makers that are living, breathing human beings. And they want a connection as well. Putting aside procurement, of course, who are in the robot category everyone else is pretty much interested in building a relationship, because what they're trying to judge is if I do business with you, that's usually not a quick fix.

It's usually a two, three, four-year deal. Are you going to be the sort of person that's going to be around in the trenches? Are you going to be the sort of person that I can rely on when things are tough , and you've done that exceptionally well. You know, the midnight calls, the 4am deliveries, the stuff that you've done in your career to make sure that things happen comes from that place of authenticity, don't you think?

Jarrod Bloomfield:    Yeah, I think that's the key. That's probably one of the key points, that they know when the shit hits the fan, you're going to be there and it's not, you've got a deal and you move on. And I think if I if I look back through all the people that I know and the feedback I'd get was, you know, I'm always there and I'm always trying to help if something's wrong, even if it's sort of outside of if what I was working on, I'm always there to help and lend support.

And I think that's where it's important you build out your network. But that leverage it correctly as well and have different areas of business involved in it. And yes, I pride myself on, you know, making sure that I take those hard phone calls and it's not even the, it's being honest as well when something when you've done something wrong, I think it's and as you said, the ability to sort of take the piss out of yourself a little bit always, always lightens the mood.

So, I have a unique skill set and a great gift of doing that.

Elliot Epstein:             You do.

It's been great to catch up with you. We're only a couple of weeks away, so we're told in Victoria from being able to have a real light beer or coffee with someone out there. And I'll bet you can't wait.

Jarrod Bloomfield:    I can't wait and I said to someone the other day, there’s going to be a lot of IT people out and about. I think I think there's going to be a few late nights because a lot of the guys want to catch up and definitely chew the fat, mate. So, I can't wait. And hopefully, fingers crossed, we're out in about two weeks and we can have a face-to-face beer mate. That would be awesome.

Elliot Epstein:             Good. Don't text me when you're slightly under the weather at 2:00 a.m.

Jarrod Bloomfield:    Definitely not, definitely not. I'll lose your number after midnight.

Elliot Epstein:              Thanks, JBomb, will see you soon.

Jarrod Bloomfield:    Thanks, Elliot. Bye.

Elliot Epstein:             So now you've had a coffee and a beer with Huddo and JBomb, you should be ready to grab lunch with a client or two. I can smell the Steakhouse ribeye from here. See you there.

Stay safe. Stay positive.

Remember, your ears are safe. We recorded this podcast in StuckInDanistan, The People's Republic of Victoria.

Take care of yourselves, till next time.